Live proud podcast Ep.8: Design masterclass with Darren Palmer

• Design fundamentals for every budget: Good design should be accessible to everyone. Core foundations like proportion, scale, rhythm, and flow apply across all budgets, allowing homeowners to adapt rules to suit their specific space and lifestyle.
• The power of a clear brief: Before selecting finishes or furniture, establish a defined brief outlining who will use the space, lifestyle requirements, physical constraints, timeframes, and realistic budgets.
• Enduring design over fleeting trends: High-intensity trends burn out quickly and are best reserved for easily replaceable items like soft furnishings and decor. Permanent, built elements (waterproofing, tiles, layouts) should follow a measured, enduring aesthetic.
• Lighting takes priority: While storage is critical, lighting is frequently underestimated. Effective homes avoid harsh, uniform grids in favour of layered functional, ambient, sculptural, and natural light sources.
• The scale and proportion rule: Small furniture does not make a room look bigger. Appropriately scaled pieces prevent a space from feeling cramped and create a balanced visual and physical flow.
• Smart renovation spending: Invest funds into high-impact structural features that deliver ongoing intrinsic value — such as floor plans, natural light sources, and outdoor connections — while saving on paint and decor.
• Layering for personality: Turn a newly finished property into a home by layering wall coverings, rugs, artwork, and collected travel pieces that reflect individual identity rather than performative social media trends.
• Dual roadmap planning: Pair a written functional brief with a visual brief (such as a mood board) before purchasing items to prevent disjointed design choices and ensure cohesive results.

Brent: Welcome to the Live proud podcast. I'm Brent Hill. Most of us know when we walk into a home, it just feels right. The problem is, not many of us can articulate exactly why. And that gap between instinct and understanding is where people make expensive mistakes. My guest today has spent more than 10 years as a judge on The Block, worked with families at every life stage and budget, and built his career on a single conviction: that great design should be accessible to everyone. Welcome to the podcast, Darren Palmer. So, Darren, you've spent your career making great design accessible to everyone. Could you explain to me and the listeners how you'd define that, and what are the useful tips for making it simple?

Darren: I love that that comes across, because that's how I'd self-define as well. My whole agenda is to make good design accessible to everybody, no matter where they live or what their budget is. Because the fundamentals, the foundations, they apply irrespective of your budget. But I think it's a matter of understanding what those fundamentals are, and then, once you understand the rules, you can adjust them and adapt them and break them — if you understand them well enough. But you get the confidence to make those decisions when you're really well informed. So that's what I've been trying to do: just make sure people are well informed, so they can make confident decisions, and then feel good about the decisions they make.

Brent: I think it's really interesting that you talk about those fundamentals. What are they? What are those key things that you should look at? And probably, what are the dos and what are the don'ts?

Darren: Wow, that's a big question. Right, so the fundamentals are things like rhythm, repetition, contrast, complement, scale, proportion, perspective. There's a list of them — I'll write you an article about it. But there's a set of foundations that, if you understand why things work, then you can look at something and understand why it's working, or look at it and understand why it's not. So they're the sort of things that sit underneath all the decisions that people should make. Dos — gosh, there's so many. Dos and don'ts, that's a big ball of string.

Brent: Bit of a rabbit hole for today, mate.

Darren: Mate, yeah, we'll get into it as we go. I'll drop some little nuggets as we go through.

Brent: Yeah, great. Well, you've written a book about it [Two!] named Home Space. Two, is it?

Darren: Two books, and an educational platform.

Brent: More books than I've read then.

Darren: More than I’ve got in my library too.

Brent: So, going back to that, again, you talk about some of those key fundamentals. What do you think are some of the confronting issues that people have when starting from scratch, with the yellow butter paper, for first principles of home design? What should they be looking for when designing their dream home?

Darren: Yeah, I would say the first thing they want to think about — and this is something designers do just as a matter of course. We set a brief. I bang on about this; I've been talking about it for 20 years. But setting a brief means understanding things like budget and time frame, obviously, but also who's in the space, what are they using it for, what do they need from the space, what are their constraints — physically, in terms of accessibility and so on. And then the inclusions: the dos, the don'ts, the must-haves, the must-nots, the 'I've got to keeps’, the 'absolutely has to gos’. And then things like flow — visual and physical flow through a space — that's really important. And obviously, if you're designing a house from scratch, it's really about the proportion and scale of rooms, and then the position of rooms in relation to other things, so that you get the right functionality. For example, your living space being open to the outdoor areas; having bathrooms in the right quantity for bedrooms; having powder rooms close enough to living spaces but far enough away for privacy, acoustically. So there's a lot of that interconnectedness in planning.

Brent: Like with all the TV shows now, whether it's Grand Designs or The Block, you often find that they're either over budget or over time. How do you combat that? Is it about that really clear design brief to start with, to go, okay, these are the haves and have-nots? That's what it sounds like you're saying is: you need to be really clear and prescriptive about what you want in the home, what's practical for you, what's within your budget. It might not be an Instagram home, but it's going to be a practical home that actually works for you and flows for you. And I look at the evolution of a home itself. So a first home buyer might start as a couple, then they might grow and have children, and they might be looking at multi-generational living down the track. So having a view in mind as to time and how long they're going to be at that home for will make a big difference to the design and the break-up of the amenity in those spaces.

Darren: So it's not just the TV. I think in real life, things go 20 to 30% over budget and over time quite often. That's a good safety net, 20 to 30%, in terms of budget and time. Because how many times do you hear people that are like, “Yeah, my build's going to take 18 months, I'll be in by Christmas” — and they're still not done by July the next year?

Brent: They're always in by Christmas, or before Easter. So I don't know how that works into the builder's programme. It doesn't seem to work.

Darren: Yeah, it's not real. I think the only way you're going to get in by Christmas is if the builder says you're going to be in by March. So that's one part of that question — that was a big question too. In terms of all the different facets of a home, you can't be all things to all people. You have to set the parameters that are appropriate for your stage in life. What's right for a first homeowner, or a single person, or a couple with no kids, is going to be different to a young family, which is going to be different again to having older kids at home — which, like you and me, is the sandwich generation. Have you heard that term?

Brent: I just feel like the meat in a sandwich today.

Darren: Yeah, this is the thing, this is the point. We've got this downward pressure from our ageing parents, we've got teenage kids, we've got all the work stresses, all the expenditure — we're getting it from every single angle. So our brief is going to be really different to a brief for somebody in their 60s, and different again to somebody in their 80s. That multi-generational living sometimes has to span three different age groups — three generations at home as well. So you need to really pull everything back to the brief first. The brief definitely sits around who is the house for, what are their constraints, and what do they need the house to do.

Brent: I think you've nailed it with that. What I'm hearing from you is: a good brief, clear budget, understanding who's in the house, how it flows practically, having a list of the needs, and then the nice-to-haves on top of that if it fits within the budget. So that's a great bit of advice for us. I often hear people talking about timeless design, and lasting the test of time with home design. I don't know if that's all BS, or — in the design language, what does that mean practically when people say it'll last the test of time?

Darren: I have a theory on it. It's just my own theory, but if you think about the intensity of a trend as like burning magnesium, right? Have you seen magnesium burning? It burns hot and fast.

Brent: Maybe in science, many years ago.

Darren: Yeah, bingo. Back in science class, you burn magnesium, it burns white-hot and really quickly. But if you burn a piece of coal, that's a slow burn, it retains heat for a good while. It's not as pretty, it's not as sparkly, but it'll endure. So these two things are basically... think about Labubus. They were hugely popular, very intensely, and then gone. That's a very peak, high-intensity trend that has a very short lifespan.

Brent: Like those acid-wash jeans that you're wearing under there.

Darren: They are not. Absolutely not acid-wash jeans. I do have blonde tips, though, on the weekends. No. But then there's things —

Brent: So they’re trends or fads.

Darren: Well, there's trends. Trends are really interesting — we could go into this for the whole episode. This whole episode could be about that.

Brent: Well, you're the trendsetter here, so I'd like to get — what the trendsetter is saying is that trends can last the test of time?

Darren: So here's the thing: trends used to be movements. They used to be based on what a monarch or a leader wanted — think Louis XIV, or Napoleon. They set a whole set of parameters around design that lasted for their reign, so decades. Then, as we go through the time frame, they got shorter and shorter, more compressed, based on different socio-economic happenings. And then they got to the point where they weren't following each other, or repeating each other, or responding to each other, but they were stacking on top of each other. So now we have not movements, but trends. And the trends can be five layers deep, and they can all not necessarily relate to each other, but they may come from the same stimulus. So you might have a different response to the same stimulus, if that makes sense.

Brent: Talk through practically what that might mean in house design.

Darren: Yeah, practically what it meant, for example, if you look at COVID, what we saw is the world outside was not very clean, in our perception, so everybody needed to be clean.

Brent: Sanitising hands. Yeah. Masks.

Darren: So on one hand we had minimalism in houses, and on the other hand we had cottagecore. One approach, from the same stimulus, was: it's not safe outside, I need my house to be clean and minimal. But on the other side: it's not safe outside, so I want to go back to a time in my mind where I was safe — I'm going to go back to my grandmother's place. Cottagecore.

Brent: Right.

Darren: Yeah. So you can have two separate reactions to the same stimulus. That's how trends work. I'm getting really deep into the philosophy there, but for a takeaway for people at home, just think about the intensity of a trend. If it's very intense, very popular, if you're seeing it everywhere, it's very now — that's a trend that'll probably burn quickly and not last very long.

Brent: Okay.

Darren: Whereas if it's something that you like and feel good about, but you're not passionate about it, it's not something you're seeing in every magazine — that's maybe something that's going to endure.

Brent: Sure.

Darren: So my advice would be: those really hot, fast-burning trends, you put them in things that are easy to replace. So things that aren't attached to waterproofing, things that are easy to repurchase. So decor, soft furnishings, even rugs, handles, stuff like that. You can change them like you can change earrings.

Brent: Sure.

Darren: Your earrings. [Sure.] But then, if you've got more static things in a home, so the built environment, things that are attached to waterproofing, tiles — they should be more measured, if you want a long-lasting life from them.

Brent: So if you talk about the more expensive things in a building: the hard infrastructure, the amenity pieces, bedrooms, kitchens, etc., what you're really saying is you can dress those up over time. Which takes us into the next topic, about budget and how that affects good design, or otherwise. But timelessness, to me, is something where you can go back in 10 years and say, that still looks really good, and it's not offensive. A lot of the work you've done over time has that — the right colour palettes, those nice aesthetics that really feel like a smooth transition into a home, and make it feel like a really nice home.

Darren: I like to think about things that are enduring. That's the word I like to use. 'Appropriate' is a boring word, but it's one of the words I use too. And 'enduring'. So if you take a measured approach to how you go about designing things, you can end up with something that's enduring.

Brent: Sure. When it comes to designing for your lifestyle, what are the most common mistakes that you find? Might be the kitchen, might be some of the living zones. What are the pitfalls? Is it looking at Instagram, going, “Wow, that looks amazing, I'm going to try and replicate that in my own home”? Is that something you're seeing at the moment, people too much on social media, trying to design for other people, and maybe not necessarily going back to first principles, designing for your home and your family?

Darren: Do you know, I think we're seeing a bit of a turn away from that trend of doing things for other people, doing it for the Instagram. I deliberately said 'the Instagram', by the way — I'm not that old that I call it 'the Facebook'. But there's a whole shift away from performative homes to authentic homes. So a decoration approach that's about referencing your travels, the things that are important to you, curating your space so that it reflects you, really.

Brent: So, personalisation. Making it feel nurturing, and I suppose making it feel homely.

Darren: Yes. But also, it's the version of your home that you want to live in for yourself, not the version you want to take photos of and put on Instagram. That's absolutely a current trend that we're seeing now, and emerging, for sure.

Brent: Now we're talking about trends — it's good to see people being authentic about what they're designing in their own homes. I look at a lot of spaces that are created, whether they're homes, apartments, etc. You look at storage, lighting, furniture, materials. Which of those items do you think is consistently underestimated or valued?

Darren: I have an opinion. What's yours? I'll tell you what mine is.

Brent: Mine is always storage. You don't have enough storage.

Darren: Really? Okay, so that's a big one.

Brent: I don't have as many clothes as you, either.

Darren: I don't have as many as you think, because I share a wardrobe with my husband and we can wear the same stuff. So you're right, storage is often under-considered. But for my money, it's lighting. I think it's so easy to just —

Brent: It changes the mood of things, right?

Darren: Oh, look around — this is lit so that we've got functional lighting, we've got ambient lighting, we've got sculptural lighting. We've got different sources. This is a sculptural light; that's a source of functional light. Light should, and can, and does provide task, ambience, sculpture. It can create shapes in spaces, it highlights things, it takes the attention away from other things. Then you've got available light — external sources — and then borrowed light from secondary sources. So lighting is probably one of the most important things that, generally, if it's not considered properly, gets punted to the sparky, and they put an even grid on the ceiling, and you don't get any of those things. You just get even light. And even light is great in a 7-Eleven, but it is not great in a home.

Brent: Now I'm hungry. I agree about lighting — and it's interesting: at Frasers, we have a lot of property which we sell off the plan, and a lot of property that customers don't tactically walk through. So that's a really good point to add: when customers are actually looking, particularly off the plan, and going through some of the display homes, to actually look at that and take notice of the lighting. So, massive tip from you, Darren, appreciate that. The other element was furniture. I know you've furnished a lot of celebrity homes, amazing homes on some of the TV shows, and you've also done some great work for us over the years. What are the key tips when using soft furnishings?

Darren: So, furniture first. Furniture is about scale and proportion. Make sure you're using the right scale of things to suit the room it's in. One of the things people believe that's not true is that small furniture makes rooms look big. It doesn't. In a photograph for real estate, yeah, you can cheat — a double bed in a photograph to make a bedroom look bigger, that's valid. But in real life, if you're standing in a space, if you're living in a space, and you've got a space that's big enough for a four-seater sofa and you've got a two-seater in there, it just makes you equate that you don't have enough space. It's the same principle as having a rug that's too small — it looks stingy. So scale and proportion is really important, because you want to leave enough space to move around a room, visually and physically, but having the right scale of things in a space can make rooms look bigger. And they certainly look more appealing.

Brent: You just spoke about circulation space, and practicality and functionality. How much of that reads into your good design — that, again, may not be in the brief? How do you translate that into a property?

Darren: I mean, that's absolutely one of the foundations, one of the fundamental things. It's not like you get to pick and choose which of the fundamentals you include — they all are necessary. They're all important, and understanding everything in balance with each other is important. So you can't just say, “Oh, I've chosen the right materials and colours, but I got the form wrong.”

Brent: Yeah.

Darren: I don't know if I answered your question, though.

Brent: Let me rephrase it. If you had five non-negotiables that you'd outline to a customer to put in a brief, what would they be?

Darren: To define your brief?

Brent: Yeah.

Darren: So who's in the space? What do they need it for?

Brent: Sure.

Darren: What is your time frame?

Brent: Time frame.

Darren: What is your budget?

Brent: Right.

Darren: Because your budget — this is something we professionals come up against, in terms of when you're talking to a client, especially for the first time, they get a little reticent to share budgets with you, because they think — their psychology is —

Brent: You’ll design to the budget.

Darren: Well, or that you'll exceed it. If you say, “I've got a million dollars,” they think you'll rub your hands together and go shopping and blow a million bucks, and then still be asking for more money. But the reason we ask about budgets is because we know that a $5 million build is different to a $1 million build, which is different to a $500,000 build. So you know you're not going to specify a $200 tile, or an $80 tile, it might be a $50 tile. It's that square-meterage thing: the things that add up in terms of how much they cost per square metre — like flooring, like drapery, like carpeting — they're the things you need to back-calculate from the budget and go, okay, that's a mid-tier budget, so I'm going to get mid-tier inclusions for the major things. Then you put all your effort into how you plan a space functionally, and that actually doesn't cost more or less. That's just about thinking about how you're going to use a space, and how the people who are going to live in the space need to use it.

Brent: So, with that — we've just mentioned three of the key ones. There'll be two more, which we'll get back to.

Darren: Two more? Jesus.

Brent: But where my mind goes is — there's often, when people are designing their home, they'll have a hero, whether it's a light fixture or the island bench. Where should people spend their money? What should be the hero statement, and where are they going to get their bang for their buck? Where would you suggest people actually spend money to get that bang for their buck?

Darren: My answers are really frustrating, because I'll never give you a one-answer-fits-all, lick-and-stick answer because it just doesn't exist. It's really about — the brief also needs to consider geographic location and the style of architecture. So if you think about the location of a property — if it's in the country, or coastal, or the middle of a city — then the approach for each should be different, to a degree, and probably shouldn't be transposed onto the others. You know what I mean? A country-themed penthouse in the city would be weird, right?

Brent: So, horses for courses. Which goes back to your number one element, that we started with — each person will have their own different living arrangements, their own budget, their own themes that they want to introduce. So there can't be one thing that will tick the box for the hero element.

Darren: That’s it, because again, think about geographic location in terms of weather and climate. If you're in Queensland, you're probably not going to be searching for a fireplace as your central element. But if you're down in Victoria or lower, a fireplace is a really great structural inclusion as a central element. Things like staircases and architectural inclusions can be really great focal points. But it can also be art, it can be a statement light, it can be furniture — there's any number of different things. I'd love to say taps and cushions and rugs, because that's all the stuff I sell, but it's really horses for courses.

Brent: Anyway, if you want a beautiful rug — or some great taps — go and speak with Darren after the podcast. I want to talk about another element of design, and this also goes back to sustainability, and I believe budget as well. Often people go, okay, I'll quickly renovate this, or I won't spend as much money, and I'll come back and do it four or five years down the track when I've got a bit more money, an income that's going to be able to supplement a grander look or a grander design. What are your views on that? Do you often feel that people regret not spending the money, or not focusing their money in the right places? It also brings in that sustainability element — you're spending all this money and time on the goods, and then they're tearing it out in a couple of years' time.

Darren: That's probably one of the easiest ways to understand sustainability from a design point of view. We can look at materials and the sources of where things are made — the factories, how they go about creating things, their waste management, all that sort of stuff that's probably beyond a consumer. But as a consumer, you can think about something that is enduring, has intrinsic value, and will last. One, it's a great place to invest your money, and two, it's a great way to keep things from ending up in landfill. So if you invest in things like the built environment, things that are of high quality and high construction spec, then they will endure. There's nothing wrong with doing the work that you can achieve with the budget you've got — if it's a lick-and-stick, if it's a little tizz-up and it makes you feel better in your home, there's nothing wrong with that. But if you're going to invest money in improving something, then put your money into things that will always be giving you back something in your life. So, for example, if you bought a house that's a fixer-upper, the thing you fix is the floor plan. You fix the access to the outdoors. You fix available light sources. You fix things like openings and doorways and skylights and stuff like that. That's where you spend your money, and then you can save your money in paint and decoration, because that's personality. Personality doesn't need to cost a lot of money.

Brent: Sure.

Darren: I feel like I've sort of sidestepped your question again.

Brent: No, I think you've got that pretty well on the mark. We spoke about the disposability of a renovation, but what you're saying is, where you need to spend the money is on those fixed items, the fixed infrastructure — the other nice-to-haves, the tiles and paintwork, you might touch those up over time.

Darren: Well, you said five years, every five years — and I would love to say that I've never replaced things every five years, but I have. I was in my last house for 15 years, and I literally did a renovation as I moved in, then another one five years after that, and then I replaced the kitchen five years after that. So I had three separate kitchens in this house.

Brent: You contradict yourself.

Darren: Indeed I am — that's the point. So, again, there's no lick-and-stick approach, and there's nothing wrong with spending your resources in the way that's going to improve the house, or your home, in the most efficient way. For example, if your bathrooms are terrible, fix your bathrooms. If your kitchen's fine, don't spend the money there. If the layout's not right, spend the money on the layout.

Brent: Okay.

Darren: Or, if you're buying something brand new, make sure that when you're looking at the plans, before you sign the contracts, you're happy with the way everything flows and links together.

Brent: I think that's great advice. Probably a little off script — I was just thinking about this then. You've got your own family. If you were to design your dream home, what does it look like? Don't tell us what the budget is, it would be obscene — but what does that look like for yourself, and where you're living today?

Darren: Mate, I spend so much of my time — when I should be trying to get to sleep — designing things in my head. So, yeah, I mean —

Brent: Just a bit of a glimpse as to what a Darren Palmer-designed home would look like in the dream world.

Darren: Which version? That's the thing. I love coastal living, so it's always going to be a coastal home. I like a modern interpretation of mid-century — mid-century modern. I like —

Brent: Who's in the home? We've spoken about multi-generational living — does the extended family live in the home? Does that have anything to do with it?

Darren: Not if I have anything to do with it. My in-laws live in France — that's fine with me. And my parents, thankfully, are in good health, they're in their own home, and that's great for me too.

Brent: Your lovely son — maybe he might live with you for a longer period of time.

Darren: No, no, here's the thing: my son turns 18 next year, and I used to joke with him, “18, you're out, go get a job.” That's not the truth. But the truth is —

Brent: He could get on one of the renovation shows. That's a good start.

Darren: He wants to be an architect, funnily enough. But the thing I tell him, “you're out at 18,” is not the truth. The truth is, when you're 18, we're out. We won't be home. We might be in Europe for three months. You can stay home with the dogs and look after things.

Brent: Stay rent-free. It sounds like a great position to be in.

Darren: I reckon. So it's always going to be a home for myself and my husband. It's always going to be a place for our son to come and stay, or live, whatever he wants. And it's always good to have rooms for guests, because it's nice to have people stay for a weekend.

Brent: Man, it sounds like you guys have got it set. So lucky for him.

Darren: He has to live with me, though, that's the problem.

Brent: Nothing wrong with that. So, just talking about that — and just before we wrap things up: for someone who's just moved into a new home and wants to start by looking at some of the key design principles, what's your advice?

Darren: A finished home? Something brand new that they get to express themselves in?

Brent: Turn the keys, walk into the home. What should they do as far as the furnishings, and —

Darren: Layers. Layers is what they need to think about. Chances are you're buying something that's been spec'd and finished to a degree where everything's painted, the floors are in, the bathrooms are done. That's where you get an opportunity to express yourself with things like wallpapers and wall coverings, artwork, layering in your rug, then your furniture, then decor on top of that, and then all the things from your travels, things you've picked up along the way, how you've expressed yourself. Exactly, personality. So that's when I see that brief of, here's a new space, what do you do with it? You just layer, and layer, and layer. And you can layer in any different direction, aligned to what trends you like and what floats your boat.

Brent: Sounds a bit like how I'm trying to clothe myself as well. Mum always said, put some layers on. It's cold outside, particularly in Melbourne. So it's very similar to home design —

Darren: It'll feel cold if you don't have layers, yes.

Brent: Have a bit of personality to it as well. To wrap things up — and it's been great chatting to you — what's the piece of design advice you find yourself giving the most? I'm sure, on the street, when people bump into you, they say, “I need some advice on how to spruce up my home, give it some personality.” What's the number one piece of advice?

Darren: I swear to God, it's always: write yourself a brief. People never think of setting themselves a set of parameters to work within. Because if you don't have that, everything is an option, and you get completely overwhelmed by all the things you could select. The benefit of a brief — so, you've got a written brief, which we've discussed — and also set yourself a visual brief: a Pinterest board, or a scrapbook, whatever it is, so you've got a visual reference. So you can go, “I clearly like these colours, these patterns, these materials, I like this style, I like this trend.”

Brent: This might be a fourth and fifth non-negotiable that we forgot to speak about, but we're bringing it in right at the end here.

Darren: We got it by the end. And then you've got these two things: a sort of written roadmap, and a visual guide. And then every decision you make, you go, “Okay, does this fit within my time frame, my budget, the constraints I have in terms of usability?” Does it look the way I need it to look? And is it in the materials I need? And if it's not any of those things, that's not a choice anymore. Then you end up with a set of parameters that's, you know, maybe this wide and this deep — and that makes your life so much simpler, and you can clearly make decisions that you know will work. And before you buy a single thing, I'd say this as well: plan everything. Put it all down in front of you. You should be able to look at it and go, “That feels weird, that doesn't work.” Then you've got your two roadmaps to go by, and you can replace this, pull it out, put something else in that works better, and adjust anything that it affects. Rather than buying things ad hoc as you go, you can end up with a Frankenstein's monster of a house, plan everything first. Whether you buy it now or not is another thing. But planning, and having two sets of parameters — your brief and your visual brief — will help you make the best decisions you can possibly make.

Brent: I think you've nailed it there, and I probably should have started with that question right at the start. [We'd have had nothing else to talk about] We'd have saved ourselves 30 minutes! But it came down to those five fundamental questions, those non-negotiables. You really finished that off well, with some great advice. Depending on what your budget is, what your brief is — what you're saying is, it changes for everybody. It can't be one size fits all. Thanks so much for jumping on today. I know the listeners and viewers out there are going to get a lot out of the advice from Darren Palmer. So thanks very much for joining, Darren. Really appreciate it.

Darren: My absolute pleasure.

Brent: Thanks for listening to the Live proud podcast, brought to you by Frasers Property Australia, creating stronger, smarter, happier neighbourhoods since 1924. Because pride starts with where you call home, but it grows through community spirit and a sense of belonging that makes life richer every day. Subscribe to hear more conversations that celebrate what it means to live proud.